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Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
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| BarbBush wrote: | | {uZa}fcbcynic wrote: |
State sovereignty is what this country is supposed to be about. I would recommend another reading of the Constitution as well as a perusal of contemporary commentary about the Constitutional Convention. Many of the colonies refused to sign on to the new Constitution unless state sovereignty was assured.
Our nation is supposed to be a VOLUNTARY union of states. If maintained at the point of a bayonet (thank you, Mr. Lincoln) it is no longer voluntary and the original intent of our Constitution is usurped. I will not go into a history lesson here, as it would take entirely too much space. I will, however, recommend that those who are truly interested, or who remain ignorant of our nation's history, contact me about some resources regarding our founding and our form of government.
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I'd love to hear more. You have any online lectures? Love to hear them. |
Only my website, BB, which addresses a multitude of issues. I do not have any online lectures yet, but if I achieve my goal of becoming a history/political science teacher I may have to look into that.
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Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage!
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject:
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| {uZa}fcbcynic wrote: |
Only my website, BB, which addresses a multitude of issues. I do not have any online lectures yet, but if I achieve my goal of becoming a history/political science teacher I may have to look into that. |
Did I miss the website URL in this thread? Come on now brother, let's have the hyperlink!
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject:
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| {uZa}fcbcynic wrote: | You are correct when you say, "State Sovereignty." You should know that the New England states wanted to secede from the Union because they disagreed with the U.S. war with Mexico. So you see, secession was acknowledged by many early Americans as being perfectly legal and acceptable. It just depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it?
I would ask that you read this excerpt from the Declaration of Independence and then tell me what you think it means:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — [i]That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the [i]Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new [/i]Government,[/i] laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. (Emphasis mine) |
Looks like the Preamble.
What do I think it means? Well, let's take it piece by piece.
| Quote: | | We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. |
These are basic human rights that every person on this planet deserves.
| Quote: | | — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed |
The members of the government were chosen by the people of this country to protect and secure those basic human rights I mentioned earlier.
| Quote: | | — [i]That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the [i]Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, |
Whenever/If the government turns corrupt, it is up the the people to "destroy" it, or rather, bring it down, and resume normal government activity.
| Quote: | | and to institute new [/i]Government,[/i] laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.[/ |
Like I said, after bringing down a corrupt government, the people should re-establish a government, and to reform [the government] (if needed) to protect the basic human rights that were outlined ealier.
Did I pass your test cynic? 
And if you're wondering, yes, I wrote all of this myself, I did not use any sources besides my brain to type this.
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject:
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| BarbBush wrote: | | {uZa}fcbcynic wrote: |
Only my website, BB, which addresses a multitude of issues. I do not have any online lectures yet, but if I achieve my goal of becoming a history/political science teacher I may have to look into that. |
Did I miss the website URL in this thread? Come on now brother, let's have the hyperlink! |
My bad, I assumed that you knew about my website.
www.floydbayne.com
Enjoy!
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Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage!
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject:
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| Spamitarium wrote: | | {uZa}fcbcynic wrote: | You are correct when you say, "State Sovereignty." You should know that the New England states wanted to secede from the Union because they disagreed with the U.S. war with Mexico. So you see, secession was acknowledged by many early Americans as being perfectly legal and acceptable. It just depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it?
I would ask that you read this excerpt from the Declaration of Independence and then tell me what you think it means:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — [i]That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the [i]Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new [/i]Government,[/i] laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. (Emphasis mine) |
Looks like the Preamble.
What do I think it means? Well, let's take it piece by piece.
| Quote: | | We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. |
These are basic human rights that every person on this planet deserves.
| Quote: | | — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed |
The members of the government were chosen by the people of this country to protect and secure those basic human rights I mentioned earlier.
| Quote: | | — [i]That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the [i]Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, |
Whenever/If the government turns corrupt, it is up the the people to "destroy" it, or rather, bring it down, and resume normal government activity.
| Quote: | | and to institute new [/i]Government,[/i] laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.[/ |
Like I said, after bringing down a corrupt government, the people should re-establish a government, and to reform [the government] (if needed) to protect the basic human rights that were outlined ealier.
Did I pass your test cynic?
And if you're wondering, yes, I wrote all of this myself, I did not use any sources besides my brain to type this. |
I wouldn't have expected any less of you than to write your own responses, Spam. I think you gather the gist of it quite well. The thing to remember is that the people have the right to form any government that they believe is in their best interest. That can mean, as is the case in contemporary America, wresting the government away from the politicians and getting back to the Constitution. We don't need to CHANGE our form of government, just return to it.
It is also important to remember that while the Declaration of Independence is certainly one of our "founding" documents, it is not the document by which we govern, that would be the Constitution. It is equally important to understand how our founders, through the Constitutional Convention, came to pen that document. It was not done on a whim and it took much time and arguing to reach the final draft. Even then there were those who were unhappy with it and insisted on The Bill Of Rights being included. The reason?, to avoid a strong Federal (central) government that would replicate the monarchy they had just broken from. It was important to those who agreed to a Union under this document that it was clearly understood that individual rights trumped State rights, and State rights trumped Federal rights. THE PEOPLE! They are the arbiters of how they are to be governed, not the politicians and judges.
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Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage!
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:
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I'd like to thank you for the complement, cynic 
The bit you said about people not wanted a strong federal government, that is true and all, but the main reason they didn't want one was because they just left one. They were afraid the president would try to become king or something. But either way, I guess it's the same.
Without the states, there is no federal gov't. Without the people, there is no state, which mean no gov't.
However, if you reverse it, it doesn't make much sense. EXCEPT that without a federal gov't, there is no United States.
I guess I'm not really disagreeing, just putting in my $0.02.
Cynic, I have no doubt that you'll become a history/political science professor. You definitely seem to know your stuff, much better than I do And you have major bragging rights over everyone else, you're the only person that I can say "beat" me in a debate of some sort. Most other times, I drag it out so much that the other person just gives up and says I win. Not this time
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject:
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You're quite welcome, Spam. Just calling it like I see it. Although I must admit that I didn't realize we were debating. I thought I was offering information to a young man who wished to learn from another perspective. However, I will say that the art of "civil discourse" has long been lost in our culture and it is always good when two people can offer varying ideas and views on any topic without becoming contentious.
I would, however, like to continue to take advantage of this opportunity to continue your education. Allow me to address your statement regarding the lack of a federal government if there are no state governments.
You should know that the federal government was created for VERY SPECIFIC purposes and those were spelled out in the Constitution. Our founders came to realize that the Confederation they had created was unwieldy when it came to foreign affairs and protecting the nation as a whole. Thus the federal branch was created to provide a more streamlined and expedient method for handling national affairs that affected all the states.
Regarding the need for government of some sort, Thomas Jefferson said it best, "That government governs best, which governs least." The founders recognized the need for government involvement in certain aspects of the citizen's lives, however, as I stated earlier, the Constitution strictly spells out the federal governments role. The people, through their elected representatives decide which laws the states and localities will be governed by. A good example of federal usurpation of state laws would be the Roe v. Wade decision regarding abortion. Rather than let the people decide, on the state level, how they wish to address this issue, the Supreme Court, by judicial fiat, made a federal decision that was enforced on all the states. Many other such examples can be cited, but this is one that most people are familiar with.
I always enjoy the opportunity to, at the very least, offer a different perspective on the body politic. It should also be quite obvious to anyone who has read these forums over the past few months, that there are topics that "set me off" more than others. When these topics come up I am hard pressed to remain silent  All I can hope to do in expressing my views is give others some food for thought and maybe provide a spark that will fuel the flames of curiosity and the desire to learn more.
I have enjoyed our discourse and hope to be able to continue same.
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Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage!
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject:
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Very well put Cynic! 
I am a terrible writer with bad grammer, so not always able to clearly write what I know or think.
I don't do any better with spoken words either. 
That is pretty much what I meant by "I am conservative and would rather see a less powerful Fed gov and a stronger State and local gov".
Not a powerless Fed, just less powerful than current status.
We are seeing more of the fed gov pushing the states and the states are forced to follow. 
Usually must follow fed to get money and many other examples.
This will eventually destroy our original form of goverment.
Don't get me wrong, I think this is the greatest country and am proud to be American.
I just think it's time to change our current direction and get back to the foundation that our country was built upon.
The principals and convictions of our founding fathers is what made this country so great.
We should continue to be modern and strive to be a leader in our world, but really need to not let our foundations crumble or it could cause a collapse.
Cynic, I hope there comes a day when you will be able to dedicate a website to sharing the truths of our gov.
Your insight, clear understanding, and ability to share/teach are in desperate need today.
Maybe some day you will be able to write a book.
I would buy a copy.
My humble opinion is that this is a God given talent that you have been blessed with.
I hope you get to use it at your fullest potential.
Anyone would be blessed to have you as a teacher.
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:08 am Post subject:
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I agree with Studdog, if you wrote a book, not only would I buy it, but I know it be a great book, possibly on the New York Times Monthly Best Sellers List
Cynic, you would make a great political speaker, and president.
VOTE CYNIC 2008
Anyways, good luck with becoming a teacher, whoever has you as a teacher will be very smart when they finish your courses
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:39 am Post subject:
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Thanks, guys, I'm tearing up here  I really do appreciate the kind words. I have given much thought to writing a book, but I keep wondering what I could say that hasn't already been said. I suppose there is a way I could approach it that would make it different and interesting. I'll keep looking into it.
Studdog, your comment about the states having to follow the dictates of the fed's to get money reminded me of a quote by Benjamin Franklin. He lamented that (I'm paraphrasing here) "Our form of government , while the best around, can be abused as soon as the politicians learn that they can vote themselves money." No truer words were ever spoken.
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Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage!
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:09 am Post subject:
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This thread is great guys. I would like to thank you guys for discussing this.
We (I) need to be reminded from time to time what our government is about and what it is supposed to be about. I feel we are just so brainwashed by our politicians, making their agendas the norm. They are not, they and us have completely forgotten what they are there for.
US
-Barb
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:26 am Post subject:
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| {uZa}fcbcynic wrote: | | Thanks, guys, I'm tearing up here I really do appreciate the kind words. I have given much thought to writing a book, but I keep wondering what I could say that hasn't already been said. I suppose there is a way I could approach it that would make it different and interesting. I'll keep looking into it. |
That's exactly what makes a good book. A different way of approaching the topic. I'm sure that there have been 9999999 books on WW2, but there are some they stand out from the rest because of the way they approach it, and the way they present the information.
If you do decide to write the book, and if it gets published, be sure to tell us.
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