No matter which side you take, you will offend someone. When will everyone agree that both sides are a matter of choice and both should be understood by everyone. That is unless you want people to make choices without understanding. I think everyone should be taught all possibilities, and decide on their own. That's what I like to call Critical Thinking, verses just being Bain Washed. Here's my point:

Six steps of Evolution

1. Cosmic Evolution – The origin of time space and matter from nothing in the big bang.
2. Chemical Evolution – The origin of all 92 elements from hydrogen.
3. Stellar Evolution – The formation of stars and galaxies from gas clouds.
4. Organic Evolution – The origin of life from non-living matter.
5. Macroevolution – The changing of one kind of plant or animal into another kind of plant or animal.
6. Microevolution (I prefer to call it “Variation within Kind”) - Changes within the same kind; like wolves, coyotes, and dogs being related to a common ancestor.

All we have ever observed is what evolutionists themselves call “sub-speciation” (variation within kind), never “trans-speciation” (change from one kind to another kind of plant or animal). Numbers 1-5 are never observed; only imagined or believed. Imagining or believing is not science, and is in line with religion. It takes faith to believe in evolutionism and creation. Only number 6 is real science, which can then step out of science and into interpretation of the data which is based upon ones world view. Let’s be honest; Creationists and Atheists both completely agree on all science, it’s the interpretation of the science that causes the arguments and always will. Number 6 is true for the theory of creation and evolutionism. Creation and evolutionism both require faith, belief, or imagination to be justified. At their core they are both a religious belief:

1. NOTHING exploded (big bang) and created space, time and matter from NOTHING, is beyond our understanding. Think about it; nothing exploded or everything has always existed in different forms without a beginning. This is impossible to comprehend. This requires Imagining, believing, or having faith that it happened.
2. A supreme being (God), who is outside of time, space, and matter, spoke and created time, space, and matter from nothing is again beyond our understanding. Think about it; a God that has no beginning or end and is not a part of our three dimensional universe or limited by it. This requires Imagining, believing, or having faith that it happened.

It is truly mind boggling to think of how we came into being; Nothing Exploded, Universe has always existed, we are not really here, or we were created by a God that is outside of our universe. All of these are truly beyond what mankind is able to fully comprehend. It’s like explaining a computer to a tree; the tree can never understand it. Since we are limited to being 3 dimensional beings (that is we see two and perceive the third), we can never comprehend more dimensions. Try to explain what we are to a one or two dimensional being, it can’t be done. They would never understand. It’s like trying to explain colors to a person that is blind since birth, or sounds to a person that has been deaf since birth. Even though 3 dimensions, colors, and sounds are real, it is completely beyond their understanding or imagination and to them they do not exist or cannot exist. What is there beyond our understanding? If we can’t understand it, does that mean it does not exist? What’s naturally outside our universe? What’s spiritually outside our universe? As God stated “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” 1 Corinthians2:9. So even God admits there are things outside of this universe that we cannot currently understand, but states they are real. Humans have a tremendous amount of imagination, but there are things we cannot even imagine. Does that mean they do not exist?

So where do you choose to put your imagination, belief, and faith?

That's a bunch of mombojumbo I usually don't get into. Just cause I hate reading. I get the basis of what you're saying, though. It's not that I'm trying to be forceful, but I just cannot see how Evolutionism works, because of it's origin story. There are A LOT of unanswered questions, questions that no science can ever answer. I've gone over it again, and again, and again (my job allows me a lot of time to think), and I have concluded that there is no way the "Big Bang" could happen and bring forth life. In part, because explosions don't bring forth life or stability, rather the exact opposite, but in most part, because the fact that Evolution claims the big bang was made from a chemical reaction, which magically was there. How do you explain how it got there? At some point, something had to put those chemicals there in order to do that. That's the only logical explanation.

Even if Evolutionism is true, it needs a god, or some sort of intelligent being, superior to all, in order to exist. Just like all the things we have created, life HAD to be created, it had to be put together, intentionally. After I figured that out, I thought, "Well, perhaps this 'being' just got things started and let it all do it's magic from there. Maybe that's where Evolutionism works", but then I began to think harder on it, and realized, "If everything were left to chance, life would be VERY different than what we have today. In fact, it probably wouldn't be at all". It's like sending a blind man through a mine field. All things, to the cells in our bodies, to the structure and creation of the earth and surrounding universe all works together in such a synchronized fashion, and there's no way chance can do such things. Like our atmosphere. It's purpose is to protect us from space, which is a huge waste land, and completely inhabitable. I just don't see how our ozone layer was created by chance. And the digestive system. How did the first organism know to eat in order to survive? And when it did consume, how did it's digestive system, the stomach and intestines know what to do with that food? The food could have been dropped in the stomach and it would, metaphorically, scratched it's head and say, "What the hell is this?" Sure, you could say, "Well the organism's stomach began to ache, suggesting the organism should feast". Yes, but that organism has no idea what that aching means, and will more likely take something or in some way bash it's stomach until it stops, and one way or another, that organism will die, and thus, life is kaput. No, something needs to tell that organism, "Hey, it's time to eat" and tell that organism what to eat and what not. It all is just too overwhelming. And before anyone tells me I'm just brainwashed to lean towards Creationism, I can honestly tell you that I have questioned my faith again, and again. But I've finally begun to piece things together. All things, in my mind, have a purpose, and were designed by a superior being. Something, if not my God, then something. Life was created, not an accident. That's my central belief. That's all I have to say.

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"Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy or art; it has no survival value. Rather, it is one of those things that gives value to survival." -C.S. Lewis.

Well I am sure everyone here knows what I believe, but that's not what I was getting at in this post. And I am not looking to debate the subject. I'm just disgusted with the debate on rather creation can be taught in schools or religion has to be hidden in all public forums. Our schools taught creation from the beginning of the USA, and belief was never forced, and we became the greatest country on earth with a multitude of religions including Atheism. Everyone has always had the right to choose what to believe.

So my point is that no matter which belief a person has, it takes faith. Since they all take faith and in my opinion that is religion, why is there a debate? Teach all sides, or don't teach any sides of origins in public schools. Science is not based on origins and is not hampered by a person’s world view. What bothers me is when only one side is taught, because that is equivalent to brain washing and not critical thinking. If someone takes a strong stand on evolution, that is fine. Just take your kids and put them into a private school that only teaches evolution. I put my kids in a private school because I didn't like the only one view being taught.

I learned about the Greek gods in school, but that didn't make me believe it. I play video games, but that doesn't mean that I really think cynic is out to shoot me. There is a personal choice that is made no matter what is taught.

I am not opposed to prayer in school. I don't care if a Satanist, Catholic, Baptist, or any other religion is praying in school. Just open door to each view, with the expectation of there being different numbers of believers in each category. I don’t even care if an Atheist wants to have just a moment of silence. We should embrace each other’s beliefs, our multi-cultures, and quit looking for divisions. Diversity is what made our country so great! If someone is offended because a child wears a cross to school, then they need to learn to grow up. We have freedom of religion and not freedom from religion. I am exposed to a variety of beliefs in college and everyday life. I have never been offended that someone else has a different belief than mine.

It doesn't need to be a debate, I am around all kinds of people from work, to school and Social settings and when things like this come up its usually a hot topic, heh. I wouldn't go to a Geology class for prayer, though to hear and learn about that subject i really don't care to much what religion the teacher is or the guy beside me is, but if they want to pray, they can do it alone or maybe in the hall, I go for the subject and not for prayer.
What annoys me the most is people fearing what they dont know and take the easy route and not to try learn something new in a class, If you dont understand most Evolution principles try to learn them they arent a secret and any college or university could help you out, there is a lot of religious professors out there and that shed some interesting light into the subject without wrecking the basic principles of it very easyily.
Science is our friend lol

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That's what I get for not wanting to read, lol. Well, I have dwelt on that, Studdog. Every single philosophical belief seems to have that gap, or hole where we fill with faith. I think that's the wonder of it. If one philosophy was certain to be true, with no need for faith, then that would be what we would all follow and nothing more would need to be explored. And I agree, Canada. As a Creationist (obviously), I find science to be very fascinating. It's a world of endless wonder and discovery, and while I am definitely no expert at it, I do enjoy it.

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"Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy or art; it has no survival value. Rather, it is one of those things that gives value to survival." -C.S. Lewis.

I agree completely, and that’s what really bugs the crap out of me. You can’t read the news anymore without a daily legal battle over if creation can be taught in public schools or religion has to be hidden in all public forums. The interesting thing is generally all Creationist think all sides should be taught or none, and evolutionists think only their side should be taught because they believe only their view is Gospel Truth, Scientific, or not Religious. My point is I disagree with that part of their logic. Again I state it takes faith to believe in any origins.

Here’s a very small example of why evolution takes faith, imagination, or belief to have happened:

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
2. Where did matter come from?
3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?
5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?
7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove that they had a common designer instead of a common ancestor?
12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

13. When, where, why, and how did
a. single-celled plants become multi-celled?
b. two and three-celled intermediates evolve?
c. single-celled animals evolve?
d. fish change to amphibians?
e. amphibians change to reptiles?
f. reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!)
g. intermediate forms live?

14. When, where, why, how, and from what did
a. whales evolve?
b. sea horses evolve?
c. bats evolve?
d. eyes evolve?
e. ears evolve?
f. Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)?
a. The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)?
b. The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
c. The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
d. DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts?
e. The termite or the flagellates in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
f. The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants?
g. The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
h. The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system?
i. The immune system or the need for it?

16. There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?
17. How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?
18. When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.
19. How did photosynthesis evolve?
20. How did thought evolve?
21. How did flowering plants evolve, and from what?
22. What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?
23. What would you have said seventy five years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
24. Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?
25. What is so scientific about the idea of hydrogen gas becoming human?
26. Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

After an evolutionist has answered the above questions, please look carefully at their answers and thoughtfully consider the following questions:

1. Are you sure your answers are reasonable, right, and scientifically provable, or do you just believe that it may have happened the way you have answered? (Do these answers reflect your religion or your science?)
2. Do your answers show more or less faith than the person who says, “God must have designed it”?
3. Is it possible that an unseen Creator designed this universe? If God is excluded at the beginning of the discussion by your definition of science, how could it be shown that He did create the universe if He did?
4. Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact since over 90% of the population believes God created the universe?
5. What is the end result of a belief in evolution (lifestyle, society, attitude about others, eternal destiny, etc.)?

6. Do people accept evolution because of the following factors:
a. It is all they have been taught? (I think this is number one!)
b. They like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes, etc.)?
c. They are compelled to support the theory for fear of losing their job peer status or grade point average?
d. They are too proud to admit they are wrong?
e. Evolution is the only philosophy that can be used to justify their political agenda?

7. Should we continue to use outdated, disproved, questionable, or inconclusive evidences to support the theory of evolution because we don’t have a suitable substitute (Piltdown man, recapitulation, archaeopteryx, Lucy, Java man, Neanderthal man, horse evolution, vestigial organs, etc.)?
8. Should parents be allowed to require that evolution not be taught as fact in their school system unless equal time is given to other theories of origins (like divine creation)?
9. What are you risking if you are wrong? As someone once said, “Either there is a God or there is not. Both possibilities are frightening.”
10. Why are many evolutionists afraid of the idea of Creation being presented in public schools? If we are not supposed to teach religion in schools, then why not get evolution out of the textbooks? It is just a religious world view.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to argue evolution is false. I understand evolution VERY well and understand why people believe in it. Even though on a personal level I think it is false and choose not to put my faith in it. My point is again that it takes faith and I am firm believer in freedom of religion/faith.

If an evolutionist is really honest, then they would have to admit that they imagine, believe, and have faith that evolution happened. Also if both sides are presented, then we will make greater advances in science. As both sides point at the short comings of the other, it leads to better understanding and improved tweaking of theories. To ignore the short comings because of one’s belief, and thinking only that view should be taught is nothing more than brain washing. Understanding and critical thinking will always yield faster advances in any science field.

I'm fortunate to live in a fossil Mecca, i go to SAIT for Geology, but take a Paleontology minimum course for the hell of it for half the week at nights and its amazing. Where our own CG lives is the world famous http://www.tyrrellmuseum.com/ and near one of my favorite areas to hike in the Rockies here is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgess_Shale . I also collect my own fossils i pick up, hell who would've thought these mountains would be littered with seashells(this area was once a massive ocean) Just my point is i believe in a old earth, but i witness it from my surroundings not by debate and this clued into me at a very young age, hell if god wanted me to love this planet he did a great job at it. Im a big advocate for traveling and exploring every inch and under the earth.

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{uZa}Capt.CaNaDa it sounds like you live in a cool place.
Do you find a lot of the clam shells in a closed position?
There are many mountains with fossiled sea creatures, and frequently the clams are found in a closed position.
That's why I ask.
That is something that doesn't happen very often as clams always quickly open upon death.
Today when a clam dies, it's hard to find even a matched pair, but yet there are millions of closed complete clam fossils.
Means they must have been buried alive by some large catastrophic event and not thru typical events.
I wonder what the fossilized inside parts look like.

I have enjoyed some of the nature pictures that have been shared in the past.
Maybe you should post some pics of your fossil collection! Hint Hint!

I would like to visit your and CG's area, but only in summer as I hate cold weather.

There really is nothing better than looking at the plants, animals, and terrain on this world.
To me it's like a spiritual experience and no man-made objects could ever inspire the same feelings.
I have seen some very cool man made stuff, but it never brings the joy, peace, and comfort that you can find in nature.
Every time I get a chance to enjoy nature, I think of these bible verses:
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psa 19. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Rom 1.
I guess that’s why to me it's like a spiritual experience as it is a time for me to reflect.

There really is nothing more enjoyable than nature.
When we go on trips, my wife and I are ALWAYS more excited about seeing the plants, animals, and terrain in the area, than anything else.

I really have no idea how so many people can enjoy being in a city, I would be miserable.

{uZa}Capt.CaNaDa, thanks for sharing the links.
You really are in a cool place for fossils!
Even soft tissue fossils, which again means they had to have been buried alive or very very shortly after death.
Soft tissue just doesn't fossilize that frequently, but yet your area has billions of them.
I would have a real blast searching for some of those fossils.
It would be cool to have some of my own for personal display.
I would put them with our petrified wood and cool rocks and minerals that we have on display in out home.

Thought this was interesting on the news....thought I would post it here as it was brought up.

I hope the link works.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCATRE72O4TZ20110325

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